What Motivates Clients? Your Stories!

Sean

Wow, good question.  The immediate response for me is that I want to like what I see in the mirror each morning.  Having been overweight to some degree for most of my life being "in shape" represents a huge positive achievement, something tangible that says if I work hard and am consistent and dedicated, I can improve myself.   It is a revelation to go shopping and realise I can buy a tight fitting shirt to look good in when the baggy style has always been my friend.

I like the positive reinforcement when a friend or colleague I haven't seen for a while says "hey, you're looking good" and I can modestly reply "yeh, I've been trying to eat healthy" or "I've been working out".
Kara referred in another post to "social capital", and while I have never thought of it that way I think there is a definite respect amongst my friends/colleagues/peers when you can honestly say that you're trying to look after yourself when my peers are working long hours, eating bad food and drinking too much.

On a short term reward scale, I look forward to breaking old personal records and setting new PR's.  I've never consciously experienced that endorphin rush that people talk about from exercise but sometimes I will go home after a big session on a massive high that can last for days and feel incredibly enthused about working out - best two examples were after one particularly intense boxing cardio/HIIT workout and the first time I squatted 100kg.  I felt great!

So maybe it's about ego and self respect for me?  I like being fitter but my lifestyle has never really required much in the way of fitness and I haven't really spent much time worrying about long term health issues.

Eloise

Brutal honesty that will make me sound like a complete superficial prat to follow:

I figure if you're a girl with a fairly tight body, then you don't ALWAYS have to worry about how the rest looks (i.e. face and hair), because y'know, at least you have your hot body to fall back on (you can insert some discourse on superficial image-driven society here to make me sound more intelligent and like this has any scientific backing). Some days my hair looks crap, or I didn't get enough sleep. If I can still wear a tight dress and rock the bust-waist-hip measurement aspect, then it's better than nothing.

What else... Oh yeah, I like being able to outdo boys at things. It's fun when you can do more push-ups than them. It's a lame little quasi-feminist notion of mine, even though actual "fit" boys can kick my butt. I take what I can get.

Other dumb things: Sometimes my friends and I get a bit drunk and bitchy and rag on fat people (I know, I know...). If we get fat, we can no longer share this immature joy.

I'm better in bed when I'm working out more (or at least less lazy)

If I'm in better shape I have a better chance of running for the bus and ACTUALLY making it, instead of looking like a loser and running and NOT making it, and standing there hating life.

Yes, these are the things that consume my mind on a daily basis. A nice mix of vanity and concern for my overall health and wellbeing :) 

 And finally, and perhaps more frighteningly, Cherie!

Hmmmm....being strong enough to Javelin-launch a 50+kg barbell at your head when you call me "Chezza"?

Your Thoughts On Running.

Here's a response to my blog on the "dangers" of running the other day, I thought it had some positive things to say about running, that I might not have included thus far. So as not to seem too strident, or unwilling to listen to reason I thought I'd include Emma's thoughts. Enjoy!

Yeah, I guess runners are a bit nuts...  I don't know the area that the race was being held in, but I'm guessing it's no run in the park.  I really want to do the Wall of China Marathon one day.  It sounds absolutely hard core.  I find that pretty appealing :-p.

You do have a very good point that running is bad for people.  I know that running is absolutely hideous for people's bodies.  I haven't found anything else that gives me the same sort of buzz exercise wise though.  Crossfit is pretty good but not quite the same.  My PT reckons that running appeals to people with addictive tendencies.  I can understand this.  It's the whole buzz after a really hard session, but also a massive sense of achievement when you finish a set number of kms.  So many times you just want to stop, but you finish anyway, it's kind of fulfilling.  Definitely best in moderation though to avoid injury.  All runners I know are in 1 of 3 states, not injured and running well, injured and not running, or running after returning from injury :-p.

Dialogues Between Shmoopy's.

Here's an interesting dialogue (re: email exchange) between myself and my uber brain girl

Kara

"Interesting dialogues blog, wonder how much class and pop culture/conspicuous consumption issues play a part in these kinds of questions generally."

My reply

"Class- definitely, pop culture- hmmm I'm unconvinced (is this a media= action thing? Refer to the porn blog), conspicuous consumption (hiding your drinking habits?)- I'll wait to comment until I understand..."

Kara

"I think being on a 'weird' diet is definitely a form of capital in today's society. People are always following celebrity diets and I think that can become a form of status among the pop culture literate. People who are like that wouldn't feel their friends wont like them cause they eat crap."

My reply

"I do too, it seems not in these instances, or perhaps cause I'm not a celebrity?"

Kara

"Hehe maybe but still alot of people would value being on a diet whatever it is, in terms of the status it would give them in front of their friends."

My language is pretty simple but I find what Kara was saying an interesting insight into the psychology and group mentality by someone whose perspective is of the larger cultural kind. My big brain girl!

Client Response To "The Dialogues".

Cherie

"Everyone has days when they crave stuff they shouldn't have-alcohol, carbs! (oh, I do miss carbs), but I don't go around counting every calorie or wishing I could have this or that. Most days I don't even think about it. I eat a colourful salad, sip a green smoothie, crack open a tin of tuna- and I enjoy it. Even look forward to it (ok sometimes not the tuna). Sometimes I will give into the craving on those days, noone is perfect 100% of the time but it often is a conscious decision to ensure that "sometimes" doesn’t morph into "regular" or "often".

I know lots of men/women who refuse certain foods and beverages etc because they are following a training regime at various times- they aren’t considered boring by anyone I know. But if I do get asked why I'm not partaking, my response is simply - I don't feel like it (said with a smile!) or if I'm in a particularly hyper mood- I don't NEED it! :-)  It doesn’t have to be a big deal, I don’t have to be a martyr, I don’t have to provide a detailed explanation as to why my training goals don’t support a drinking habit, or a kebab complete with sour cream at 3am. I don’t have to be "that" girl, and in the end, if my friends don’t respect my choices, then perhaps I need new friends!

I'm not going to lie, wine was difficult to give up for the first week/end but again, now I don't even think about it unless I have a day like yesterday. However, even then, do I miss it because I want the wine or because it was simply a habit to reach for the glass after one of those looooong days at the office? When I finally dragged myself through the door at 8pm- I decided to reach for a glass of sparkling water instead and have an early night- which meant I still made it to my 6am yoga class and I felt great all day. I know that would not have happened if I'd had the wine -even if it was only a glass or two.

That's not to say I wouldn't have enjoyed the vino but it's about recognizing other pleasures derived from living by "the rules".

I am a creature of habit. A lot of the time the pleasure I derive from my actions/choices is largely due to the comfort of the habit, not necessarily the act/food/beverage itself.

A training program is not just about training your body, it's about training your mind, too.

However, at the end of the day, it all comes down to what you are willing to accept and/or sacrifice, you have to decide what makes you happy.

I'm not getting results at warp speed either- but I'm learning to enjoy living by the rules rather than dreading them- and for me that makes the process a whole lot more bearable (I also like to think it makes the days that I do fall off the wagon more forgivable!) and I hope, more successful, in the long term."

See the insightful people I get to work with?

And another client response: 

"... I agree with both of you...cos that’s how I feel...but saying that I know I have to be strict to get the results hence why I’m doing lite and easy, but the downside to that is only when I can afford it which means for say 1 to 2 weeks a month..I decide and then the bad things come back in! I know that  I have to make drastic changes to get the results and know that i couldn’t maintain that way of living...think eventually most people will get to the place they want to go (physically and mentally) but it does take everyone different times?"

Dialogues Regarding Nutrition.

I wanted to relay a recent email exchange a la (albeit post modernistic) Socrates or Hume on motivation, diet, and the seemingly absolutist position I take with my clients versus a more reasonable view pushed by my poor clients. Observe and see what you think?

Sarah

"Ok, about your blog. I have had some thoughts about motivating people who do not want to be motivated ... or maybe motivated in the way you feel motivated should be.

For example, I have changed my eating habits, drastically, in the past 8months and picked  up the gym stuff. Although taking some time off of alcohol would be beneficial, as well as a sticking to a strict diet would be awesome but is it about making lifestyle changes or is it about reaching a goal weight?  I’m sure I could lose my remaining 8 kilos (that’s really all I want to lose) if I stopped everything, but I would be miserable if I stopped drinking and eating. Not to say that drinking and eating are all I do for enjoyment, but I am single, go out on a lot of dates  and have a very active social life. I would much rather make long term changes to my behaviour, rather than a four week stint where I am miserable and counting down the days until I can share a bottle of wine with my friends. You know?  I could do a few weeks off, I would probably lose a few kilos, but would I gain it all back when I started living like my normal self again?  That would piss me off.

So the compromise is, working out and following your diet most of the time and still having indulgences. I look at other things, like how much my cholesterol and stuff has gone down (well the bad kind and my good kind has gone up). I know that probably sounds like crazy talk, because I freak out when I gain weight or my measurements don’t change, but I will get there eventually and have picked up some great habits along the way.

Does this make sense?"

My reply

""For example, I have changed my eating habits, drastically, in the past 8months and picked  up the gym stuff. Although taking some time off of alcohol would be beneficial, as well as a sticking to a strict diet would be awesome but is it about making lifestyle changes or is it about reaching a goal weigh?"
 

And I commend you for that, and yes the goal is to ultimately fix your habits, but the immediate goal is to reach target weight (one follows the other).

"I’m sure I could lose my remaining 8 kilos (that’s really all I want to lose) if I stopped everything, but I would be miserable if I stopped drinking and eating. Not to say that drinking and eating are all I do for enjoyment, but I am single, go out on a lot of dates  and have a very active social life. I would much rather make long term changes to my behaviour, rather than a four week stint where I am miserable and counting down the days until I can share a bottle of wine with my friends. You know?  I could do a few weeks off, I would probably lose a few kilos, but would I gain it all back when I started living like my normal self again?  That would piss me off. "

I think the larger problem here is you equate having fun with alcohol and junk food, and being miserable with the loss of both, that's a real problem. Do you really feel those things are all you have or need? Your social life doesn't need to mean eating crap and filling your body with junk, does it? I agree, it is important to focus on the long term, but I'm not sure that's how you actually feel, this feels more like confirmation bias, that you're justifying a position after the fact. You were really intense about your results, about getting them fast, made me do 2 assessments in 4 weeks, these are not the actions of someone who is taking their time. This feels a little like you wanting to simply take time off training and go partying for a few weeks, which is of course your prerogative, but it's hard for me to take your goals seriously.

"So the compromise is, working out and following your diet most of the time and still having indulgences. I look at other things, like how much my cholesterol and stuff has gone down (well the bad kind and my good kind has gone up). I know that probably sounds like crazy talk, because I freak out when I gain weight or my measurements don’t change, but I will get there eventually and have picked up some great habits along the way."

Again, great! But I don't think that's what's going on, or rather, don't think that's all that's going on. You don't get results by training some of the time, and eating junk and drinking the rest, all you'll do is stay exactly where you are, and work twice as hard. Unfortunately fat loss is a strict, horrible thing, and it requires constant diligence and hard work.

I'm not getting on your case, just trying to be honest. But ultimately it's your time, you do what you need to do, it's my job to try and make you stick to what works, ultimately it's you who decides if they want to do that.

"Does this make sense?"

Unfortunately not really, to me at least... but you've gotta do what you need to do, and I'm not going anywhere... so I'll always be there to help, anyway I can :)"

Sarah

"galub juman, not idea but everyday either. There is a compromise in this. I only really drink on Friday and Saturday, nothing in the week. It’s not balls to the walls drinking, like pre mixes and cocktails- I drink dry white wine or vodka soda water and fresh lime. I mean, the alcohol content is bad and drinking is not ideal but I’m not adding to anything with sugar syrup and juices. I don’t patricianly care what I eat, but I hate being ‘that girl’ who doesn’t want to go out to dinner because she is dieting. I order sensibly, but then again may eat a piece of bread of something.

I think there has to be some sort of balance, as you can become obsessed with weight loss and dieting and become consumed. Those girls are really annoying. No one wants to hang out with that girl.

I do have holidays booked, this year, more often than not. Part of those holidays are balls or eating at new restaurants or whatever. I guess that is what we do ... how we roll, but I am mindful.

Weight loss  is not meant to be easy, I get that. Then again, I don’t think it is supposed to be miserable. I haven’t struggled in cutting out the food that I have, with the exception of sandwiches.  There just has to be some sort of compromise. I guess that is what my point is ... yes, results won’t come as fast with a compromise, but then again if you can find that compromise it is a lot easier to maintain. Yes?"

My reply

""I think it would be a different social time for me if I were to stop eating and drinking . Really i don’t think the eating is too much of a problem ... I mean I am usually pretty good, even when I am drinking ... My big I need to eat when I am hung over is usually something like a veggie subway or something like that. I still don’t eat meat, so it’s not like I’m going all out on the food but there are occasions, I hosted a dinner party for my friends family last weekend .. .which did include a range of curries and galub juman, not idea but everyday either. There is a compromise in this. I only really drink on Friday and Saturday, nothing in the week. It’s not balls to the walls drinking, like pre mixes and cocktails- I drink dry white wine or vodka soda water and fresh lime. I mean, the alcohol content is bad and drinking is not ideal but I’m not adding to anything with sugar syrup and juices. I don’t patricularly care what I eat, but I hate being ‘that girl’ who doesn’t want to go out to dinner because she is dieting. I order sensibly, but then again may eat a piece of bread of something."

And again, I commend you, but as far as taking steps to lose the weight you want? You've really only taken the first of 10 steps, for example, I'm dieting at the moment (see here and here), I'm training 6 times a week, structuring all my meals and it's still happening slowly, I don't drink, I don't eat junk, and it's a really slow process (I'm planning on doing 6months of this). I enjoy this though, I like looking good and being healthy, that makes me happy, but it wasn't always so, I used to only eat 6 pies a day, do no exercise and drink everyday etc etc, the point is I changed the way I viewed the world, because I wanted the results. The measures and changes you're doing above are great, really. But they're nothing in the scheme of things, and you're not going to change your body type at all, unless you get drastic, even just for a short time... You can go to dinners, go clubbing, do whatever you want, without breaking the rules...

"Weight loss  is not meant to be easy, I get that. Then again, I don’t think it is supposed to be miserable. I haven’t struggled in cutting out the food that I have, with the exception of sandwiches.  There just has to be some sort of compromise. I guess that is what my point is ... yes, results won’t come as fast with a compromise, but then again if you can find that compromise it is a lot easier to maintain. Yes?"

It's not supposed to be miserable, but again, I think you're associating dieting with being miserable, which is not the way to go about it, you need to look at it as doing what you need to to get the goals you say you desire, otherwise you're just spinning your wheels.See on a dieting program, you should be looking at sandwiches as junk food, not the exception. I think, if you find a compromise all you're going to do is die by a thousand degrees (or compromises in this case). You need an objective standard (calories restriction and counting), objective guidelines (X amount of protein per day, X amount of training per week) otherwise you have no idea what you're doing and it becomes a matter of throwing everything at the problem and hoping something sticks, which is obviously silly :)"

This addresses many of the complaints the "regular" person has with training and diet, and my objections to that. I think this dialogue can be helpful to those attempting to diet, both to see you're not the only one struggling and to see what my objections to your queries may be.

Testimonials.

Here are some more testimonials, thanks to my clients for their thoughts and comments on training with me.

Steph:

“When I first joined the CBD gym my motivation was, (because of a diagnosis of high blood pressure) to increase my fitness levels and health rather than any real burning desire to loose weight.

Since starting with Rob I have found that the exercise regimes he designs have improved not only my fitness and energy levels but I have decreased by dress size down by 2 and I have now
 found motivation to reduce the kilo reading on the scales (but not so much that I am prepared to give up my champagne!!!!!)

 Rob is a dedicated trainer and tries to keep all his client’s motivated with his advice about exercise and diet and I would have no hesitation in recommending him as a trainer.”

P Diddy:

"I have continued my personal training sessions with Rob over the last six months, who has helped me to achieve some specific weight loss goals I had set to reach by June this year.  With the benefit of Robs knowledge, interest and constant enthusiasm driving my progress, I’m a mere 1/2kg from reaching that goal with a few weeks to go.  Every single training session continues to be a challenge, though one I look forward to, and the rotation of programs (usually structured in a progression of 3 sets of 4 week programs) ensures that I never lose interest, or get too comfortable.
 

Rob’s passion for all things health and fitness related is evident in his continued efforts to help his clients achieve their individual goals, and in his writings on his fitness blog.  The genuine interest he shows in helping his clients progress makes training with him a pleasure.  If you are considering taking up personal training and have some goals you want to achieve, I’d highly recommend Rob as a trainer who can help you get there."

Kathleen:

"Testimonial:  Rob has been my trainer for about a year now.  Rob continues to impress me with the amount of knowledge/education that he tries to get into my head, whether it be via his e-mails, blog or answering questions during the training session.  Rob puts 100% effort into making the session as valuable as possible and since training with Rob, my overall fitness and wellbeing has certainly improved!  Rob's energy and determination is phenomenal and if I put in as much effort as he does, I would certainly achieve my goals much faster!"

Kara:

"I’ve been following Rob’s emails and blogs for the last year and have found them a valuable resource in helping me get back on track in terms of health, fitness and diet. After starting training with Rob recently, I have found I am spending less time in the gym than I normally would, but already noticed am getting much better results. I am more flexible and strength-wise, the program Rob designed has me lifting much heavier weights than I ever have (or thought I could). I have loved the challenge because Rob has been so encouraging and inspired me to new limits. Training with Rob is always enjoyable because of his energy and warm manner. It has also been really helpful in getting me to use correct form, and I am recovering faster because of his advice about nutrition and stretching. Having a trainer who understands a vegetarian diet and can advise on that, and supplements, has also been really beneficial. Rob puts a great deal of effort into keeping clients motivated and on track to their goals, and I appreciate how knowledgeable he is and always willing to share that."

Dion:

"I have been training with Rob again for a little over 12 weeks after losing my motivation for any resistance training. Even as a personal trainer myself I still had those days when training seemed too much and I convinced myself to skip sessions. Rob basically kicked me back into gear and told me I should be leading by example for everyone else.
Since we commenced training my strength has returned tenfold. I'm lifting heavier than I have before and my form has never been better. Coupled with his nagging, oops sorry advice, on nutrition my energy levels are maintained throughout the day, and that's with the extra classes I have taken on in the gym.
What's my biggest advice to everyone else? Listen to what Rob has to say. He has a passion for health and fitness and ensures he researches what is required to help you achieve your goals. He doesn't just walk in and give a half hearted attempt. Thanks Rob and I'm looking forward to the next training session."

Testimonials.

It's been remarked to me that the reason some may not heed what I say on this blog, and I certainly know the professional strength coaches would agree, is: if I'm not posting and demonstrating results and client feedback, why should anyone listen to a word I have to say, regardless of what information I put forward? It makes me just another random Internet voice so many in the industry hate. Do I need to show I'm "in the trenches" to pass some basic competency test? Well, to some extent yes. If I show, I make my living exclusively and comfortably, training clients, that I get repeat and enthusiastic business, then I have some  (perhaps not much I admit) merit and validity as a trainer, which could lend some credence to the gibberish I spew at this blog.

If I'm being honest, I guess I was always afraid of results, as I saw them as a stark reflection of me as a trainer, but that's a horrible mentality to have. If I'm not getting results, then I'm a bad trainer, simple as that. Does it mean I need to quit and go raise sheep? Sure it could entail that, but it doesn't necessarily. It could and should motivate me to become a better trainer, to educate myself more. It's also resoundingly important for clients to know their stats, and for your clients to see client feedback, hell, it's important for you to know your clients feedback. So I'm putting together some stats over the next couple of months, I'm going to be doing blog posts about specific clients, their results, their hard work etc and I'm going to be putting up testimonials I receive. The following are from a little while a go, I'm in the process of getting more now, which I will attach to the blog.

Cherie:

Rob is by far one of the best trainers I’ve had.  He is challenging, yet accommodating, and he listens. The time he is willing to dedicate to answering queries about nutrition and training is exceptional and something I have never experienced with anyone else. If you can match the effort that Rob puts into your sessions, you will get results. I would recommend him without hesitation. 

Kathleen:

Rob recently became my trainer this year after my previous trainer left CBD.  Of the trainers I have had at CBD, so far I have found Rob to be the most informative and the one who has really gone the extra mile to educate and encourage me to achieve my goals.  Rob has his own blog and regularly sends out articles to show why he provides the training he does and why we should follow his advice!

Rob has provided great support and encouragement along with a great sense of humour (that distracts me from the pain of exercising) and with his level of knowledge and commitment to improving both my fitness and mind, I am slowly but surely progressing towards my goal!

If you are looking for a trainer who is committed to getting you to where you want to go, I would suggest you look no further than Rob.

Sean (P Diddy):

I have been training with Rob for around three years, and feel fitter and stronger than any time before.  When training with Rob I get a series of workouts which are constantly being rotated and refreshed to meet my training goals and to offer new challenges.  Rob also provides dietary, training and fitness advice outside of scheduled training sessions by way of articles by email, and more recently through his fitness blog, which I find a great innovation.  This gives me something healthy to read when I get to work so that my mind is refocused on being healthy during the day, plus the benefits in tapping into the knowledge of a health and fitness professional.  It is a pleasure to train with someone who demonstrates such a genuine interest in helping his clients reach their goals.  I would have no hesitation in recommending Rob as a trainer to anyone seeking results.

"Letters To The Editor"

In response to some of the great responses I've been getting on the blog, I thought I'd re-post them in their own blog, see if we can't continue and expand some of the discussion we've been getting.

On the Steroid blog, Sean "P Diddy" Powell had this to say:

"My thoughts are (together with a disclaimer that I don’t use steroids), are basically:

• Where do you draw the distinction between artificial supplements? For example is taking whey protein powder the same or slightly lower on the scale of artificial supplements than steroids. I don’t know if there are any negative side effects to taking protein, creatine, hydroxycut or the various other fat loss or bodybuilding type supplements commonly available from fitness stores or sites like T-Nation etc. You could even say that just going to the gym is artificially increasing your muscle size because lifting weights isn’t a “normal” activity, its something that you’re doing specifically to increase muscle mass, although with that you’re not putting anything artificial into your body. Taking protein powder (or fishoil tablets or multivitamins) adds something which is not naturally there in those quantities (although perhaps it should be if not for our inadequate diets) whereas steroids, depending on the type and method adds something which is either naturally produced by the body (eg, testosterone or human growth hormones) or artificially constructed/concentrated substances.

• Secondly, even if you do take steroids, my understanding is that you still need to work out like a nutcase, probably even harder than normal (which frankly, most of us office workers don’t get to) for it to have any or maximum effect otherwise your body doesn’t use all that extra juice to build muscle.

• Third, I think the major desire for average gym goers (as opposed to competitive athletes) to use steroids is the desire to get a quicker result, so you don’t have to put in 12 months of 5x per week nutbusting effort, which frankly, is hard work when you are there, and hard work just to get there. If you can pop a pill, work out once a week and get more muscle then its an easy fix. If you could take a pill and melt the stomach fat and build muscle, would you still go to the gym? Ie, do you enjoy the process or the result? I’m not sure where I come down on that – probably that I enjoy the process (to a certain extent) but I want the result. I suspect most of your clients would opt for a magic pill and the result though.

My 2c…"

Then there was Wolf on the Vegetarianism Pt. 2 (The Nutritional Argument) blog:

"The vegetarian diet has some nutritional good points to it but I do not think it is the optimal diet to choose for purely health reasons nor do I think it is a sufficient justification on its own to become a strict vegetarian.

Here are a few points. While vegetarians tend on avereage to have lower total cholesterol, higher fibre and plant mass and less saturated fat in their diet than the general population, this translates to fairly small end-point reductions. The general findings from large studies and meta-anaylsis are that there is a reduction in ischemic heart disease but no significant difference in several other end points including heart disease and various cancers.

They also tend to have higher levels of Advanced glycation end products, homocysteine and small,dense LDL fractions while also having lower levels of DHA and bone mineral density. All these measurements have been implicated in chronic diseases.

Additionally, meat isnt simply a source of iron and protion (of which vegetarians are also commonly deficient in) but it is a rich source of a vast array of nutrients including CLA, taurine, CoQ10, carnitine, carnosine, EPA+DHA and creatine. All of which seem to play important roles in the body and are almost entirely absent in a vegetarian diet. Even the more common nutrients (vitamins/minerals) are on average, more absorbable from meat. Plants have numerous anti-nutrients including phytates or trypsin inhibitors that bind to nutrients are inhibit their absorption or digestion.

Then there are the common concerns of anemia and protein dificiency. The standard range of 0.6-0.8g/kg was based on nitrogen studies in a small population and does not account for the wide range of metabolic variations as well as the additional benefits that a higher protein diet may provide (hypolipedmic, satiety, BMD etc).

These are just some issues that I think warrent some caution when thinking about adapting a vegetarian diet. I do think that if you do some extensive reading and consistantly monitor your diet then I think you can live a happy life as a vegetarian but I do not think that it is an optimal diet by any means and on its own, I see no reason to adapt it. Including an array of nutrient dense vegetables, I think is advantagous and there are many health issues related to meat that one must consider (cooking methods, HCA etc) but meat is a hugely nutrient dense food source that you shouldnt give up completly, atleast not for your health."

And on the CBD Facebook website (scroll down to the blog post and comments section), in response to my Want To Stay Fat? Keep Running post, Kevin Snedker had this to say:

"Really? We were genetically engineered for running. We're able to lower our internal body temperature via sweating (unlike every other animal out there) thus allowing us to maintain extended periods of strenuous exercise, ie. running. We are able to breathe during intense exercise, where animals cannot breathe and pant at the same time, thus cannot run as long as we can. The arch of our foot is an evolutionary masterpiece, able to distribute our weight evenly at any pace. We used to run down our prey, that is how we fed ourselves - I doubt caveman managed to get any food into their bodies by living heavy rocks. Don't get me wrong, I think lifting weights is an important part of any fitness regime, but to say running is bad for you? Seems like there is a lot more research that suggests otherwise. There are plenty of people that run marathons well into their 90s - when was the last time you saw a 90 year old bodybuilder."

The Continuing Discussion On Vegetarianism.

The discussion about my first Vegetarianism blog has started, and it's great, as it get's me to sharpen my ideas, and my choices.  One of my clients, Sean "P Diddy" Powell contacted me tonight, via email, with these list of, shall we say concerns? Objections? Points? Regarding my argument, and what I considered or lacked in my argument. His email was so good I got his permission to post it here. And it got me to thinking, if anyone has any responses to the vegetarianism blog, please contact me at the blog and I may chuck them up. To address things I haven't or to allow me to defend my (unpopular) position, as best I can.
Here is P Diddy:

"Being of a squeamish nature, I haven’t watched the video, but do you know where it is sourced from?  Australia has pretty strict laws on how animals are processed (to use the clinical term) for slaughter and AQIS does regular inspections of all Australian abattoirs.  Even cattle slaughtered for halal consumption has a stungun applied to the forehead and then the halal slaughterman cuts the throat.  I’m guessing that the video is probably American, and without the benefit of the stungun.

I agree that animals can feel pain, show love (or a variation defined as fondness, loyalty, or at worst associating human presence with reward) and express  curiosity – anyone who has cared for a pet would most likely agree.  But I also think that there is a human ability to accept double standards or turn a blind eye or delude ourselves that lets most of us enjoy our meat while not thinking about where it comes from.

There is also a concept which you didn’t refer to – you may have considered it but not thought it worth raising – being the right of the predator, or the food chain concept.  Do humans, as a more capable predator, have the right to kill and eat other animals -  which admittedly is a slightly elemental argument, but if we eliminate the suffering aspect and breed, raise and kill humanely without suffering, does that make it ok.  I don’t think Australian abattoirs are there yet because focus is on throughput and volume because its run as a business but it could get to the same stage that the egg industry has moved to where eggs are graded as caged, barn or free range (my personal protest is that I only buy free range eggs...)" (Powell 2011) 

My reply:

"I haven't sourced the video no, and that is something I probably should have done, I think the point was even if the animals are killed humanely (is that possible? Think, for example your loved ones being killed the ways in the video, or the ways you mentioned), there are still the other issues of environment and suffering, all of which I think are reason enough, on their own, to give up meat. But when added together? Make a very strong case for me, at least, to abandon meat..

I agree, yes humans can accept a double standard, but that's also what I'm arguing against, as in, what is the basis for the double standard? Is it valid? Again, for me? No, for you? Sure. The same double standard is what allows us to live happily while places like Africa and the Middle East suffer, which I also don't agree with, as in we can do something to help, which is what I'm advocating with the denial of meat.

The last point you raised is an interesting one, and was cited to me tonight. I don't agree with it, but let me tell you why. It seems to me if I have understood you (and others), than an argument from biology is being made, as in, we have evolved to be the best at killing, or have evoled to be at the top of the food chain so shouldn't we kill? I think a hidden premise in this argument might also be: other animals kill, but do we think a lion is inhumane for killing the gazelle?

In response I would say, evolution has adapted us to also have consciousness, intelligence and as an emergent result we have culture, science etc. We also have the ability to deny our biological urges (laws against rape go directly against our biological urge to procreate), hence it seems plausible that as the dominant species on this planet, it falls to us, to maintain the well-being of ourselves, this planet, and all the other life on this planet. With that in mind, it seems plausible to me, that given we know our eating of these animals causes either suffering or pain or both (and environmental concerns) that we are duty-bound, as the dominant species to protect other species, to reduce suffering. Especially as we can live healthily without meat. I guess the point is, and I take a long time getting there I know, is we deny our biology and the rules of this planet all the time, I think we are justified in doing it in this case. As in the hidden premise (that I admit, could be my own interpretation), a lion doesn't have the capabilities to know it can be a vegetarian, it doesn't have consciousness, self awareness etc, hence it does what it's biology tells it, it doesn't keep animals in pens and it's eating of the gazelle doesn't cause environmental concerns. So while it still is causing pain, it has no other way to live it's life, we do." (Bezant 2011)

I encourage anyone who has concerns to offer critique or argument, see if I can justify myself.

As if upon request I received a startling beat down from the President of the Atheist Community of Austin (Texas), and all round smart dude, Matt Dillahunty

"The pain argument is a non-starter, for me. Certainly I'm against excessive pain and animal cruelty and I'll favor improvements in the slaughter industry, but if suffering (the awareness and cognizance of pain) is the foundation, then the argument fails the instant one points out that it is possible to kill without pain.

This is a rights issue. What sort of rights should we afford non-humans - and why? And are all non-humans afforded the same rights - and why or why not? Do the gnat, chicken, dolphin and chimp have the same standing?

Humans aren't granted rights because we can experience pain and suffering, we initially take those rights as an act of volition and then grant them as a matter of empathy, practicality and a conscious awareness that it increases the well-being of all of us.

I tend to afford the same opportunity for rights and defense of rights to all animals and I do so equitably. It's not immoral for the shark or the lion to eat me...and vice versa.

All that said, there are other arguments (including ethical ones) for vegetarianism that still intrigue me and may even sway me, but the simplistic pain arguments are, I think, horribly flawed.

Is it immoral for me to anesthetize a bunny so that it doesn't feel pain? If I then lop off it's head, am I immoral - even though it did not suffer?

Suffering simply can't be the criteria. It's a good emotional argument but it fails in its task. I could kill another human being and make it downright pleasant, using the right drugs - and it'd still be immoral.

It baffles me that so many science-minded individuals fail to see that the suffering argument fails falsification." (Dillahunty 2011)

Any thoughts guys?